Listen to a conversation with two local trans community members who share their coming out stories, the ways TransPonder has been a valuable and lifesaving resource, about their book group which emerged during Covid Lockdown and how allies can support trans people here in Eugene.
About Guests:
Karon Barter
As writer and performer Kate Bornstein names us, I’m a ‘gender outlaw’ – my mere existence transgresses and upsets gender norms and stereotypes. I came out as a transgender woman in my late middle-age, during the COVID quarantine. The TransPonder book club became my community as I began to figure out who I am and how I want to live. It’s still an important part of my life and I’ve been a co-facilitator of it for several years now. Being part of the Hult Center Community Resource Group has been an opportunity to educate others about the existence of gender diversity and our need for acceptance and representation in the arts and media. In spite of the dangers, I feel it’s important for me to be publicly visible so other gender non-conformists know they’re not alone and so people who haven’t been aware of our existence can learn about us.
Jacob Griffin
I feel that I am having a full go at this life of mine. I was raised as the daughter of a Baptist minister. I was a drunk who chose to get sober, an atheist who chose Judaism, a woman who became a man, all on a journey to become the person I wish to be.
At the beginning of the pandemic Transponders was seeking ways to keep our community connected in that isolating time. I offered to start a book club. I was very early in my transition and the friendships I have made there have been lifesaving. For four years we have huddled together each week in a sort of virtual campfire, sharing our love of books and each other. In the rest of my life, I have been married for 23 years to Marian, am the mother to three adults, and Zayde to one perfect child.
Learn More:
https://transponder.community/
https://www.cnn.com/style/drag-queen-us-history-explainer-cec/index.html
https://hultcenter.org/events/rupauls-drag-race-all-stars-live/
https://hultcenter.org/hult-center-arts-access/#arts-for-all
Note: RuPauls Drag Race: All Stars Live Arts for All ($5) tickets are sold out. The next Arts for All show is coming up on September 14th David Cross: The End of the Beginning of the End featuring Special Guest Sean Patton
Cara: Hello listeners, my name is Cara Bryton. I use she her pronouns and I’m the Education and Community Engagement Coordinator at the Hult Center. Welcome to our second season of the Hult Center’s Community Conversation Podcast, where we go a little deeper by interviewing community members on subjects related to select performances. All past conversations could be found on the Hult Center’s Blog page.
Here in Eugene, we celebrate Pride Festival in August. And with that, we are excited to bring back by popular demand, RuPaul’s Drag Race: All Stars Live on August 13th. According to drag historian, Joe Jeffery’s, drag is a theatrical exaggeration of gender, and that the art form constantly subverts what people think they know about gender. To be clear, as we begin this conversation, drag doesn’t mean trans. However, we are living in a time where LGBTQIA2+ people’s rights are under attack, which includes both communities. We feel fortunate to be speaking with two local trans individuals today. I’m excited to introduce Karon Barter and Jacob Griffin. Jacob leads a monthly book group through Transponder. Transponder’s mission is to foster healthy communities through wellness programs, support meetings, socials, and special events. Trans inclusive resources and trainings and consultation services to improve the lives and outcomes of LGBTQIA2+ people emphasizing trans and gender diverse Oregonians.
In the last few years, Karon has been part of the Hult Center’s Community Resource Group, which creates and holds space for historically marginalized and/or underrepresented communities to gather and converse, empowering individuals to participate and share knowledge and support the arts they want to experience. Okay, so that was a long intro. And I would love now to get started.
So I gave like a very brief introduction about each of you, but would love to hear more. Can you share a bit about yourselves and your journey as trans individuals? And let’s start with Karon.
Karon: I began my coming out almost four years ago in the depths of the COVID quarantine. And it was a lonely time. didn’t know how to find community, but I stumbled across Transponder’s Book Club and it became my home. It became my community, the place that I went to every week to see people like me, to hear that it was possible to live and even thrive, even though it seemed that everybody in the world was throwing me away.
Cara: Thank you for sharing. And is there anything else you would like people to know about you, Karon?
Karon: I partner dance.
Cara: Awesome. Love that. Alright, Jacob, would you like to share about yourself?
Jacob: Well, I want to point out, I don’t run the book group anymore. Karen runs it now. I started it, but I shifted responsibility to Karen. I began to transition at the age of 62, so a little over five, almost six years ago, just before the pandemic.
Cara: Beautiful.
Jacob: I had had no expectation that I was going to be trans. I had just retired. We had moved to Eugene and to be close to my daughter and my granddaughter and my son-in-law. And it came as a revelation to me and the pandemic started and I did not know trans people. I didn’t have any kind of that kind of community.
And so Transponders was looking for a way to keep people connected. And I said, well, I could run a book club. And luckily the people in the book club don’t really want an organized book club because I’m, I’m a failure at that. but we meet every week. we have met every single week. Someone pointed this out to me recently that for five, four years, we have met every single Tuesday at five and never missed a week. That’s just startling to me and we have members from various parts of the country because we’re online and it’s just become as Karen said it’s a community but it’s a bit of a family and in its own way it’s being
You know, I spent many years, I’m sorry, I’m just going to go on. I spent many years as a lesbian and being trans, it is difficult to explain to people your attraction to other people is not the same as theirs and we’ve all been through that. I went through that with the how do two women match, it doesn’t work out and all of those things. But being trans is quite different because it’s so internal and it’s, you really need other trans people to share that.
And the people in our group are at all sorts of stages of transition from those of us fairly early in it to people who have transitioned for decades. And it’s really been a beautiful, beautiful
Cara: Wonderful. Thank you both for sharing those parts of yourself, those important stories. And, well, you kind of touched on this. But my next question was, if one of you could share the story of how you met. So was it through the book club? Or was it before that?
Karon: It was the book club. I looked at my calendar recently and discovered that it was August of 2020 when I showed up at the book club.
Jacob: We started in May of 2020,
Karon: So yeah, the Book Club was fairly new, but there was a core of people who were still there. And I don’t specifically remember Jacob, but I’m sure he was there. And I just remember the first time I looked at that screen, and there were all these little thumbnails of all these people, and I realized, I’m looking at people like me. And I didn’t even know people like me existed. I didn’t even know I existed. It was such…It was like waking up on the moon and discovering Martians and lunar people and it was so, so interesting. And I want to point out that the umbrella term transgender includes pretty much anybody who doesn’t conform to gender norms, which includes a wide spectrum of people who don’t identify as men or women. Non -binary, two -spirit, bi -gender, ambivalent flux people who alternate, who change. It’s a wonderfully diverse complex world.
Cara: Wonderful. Thank you. Thanks for sharing all that. think, yeah, those are, there’s just so much information that people get wrong. And so thank you for putting that out there in that way. Really appreciate that. So I was doing a little research for this podcast and I found that Eugene was ranked 12th in The Advocate for the queerest city in the US. And so my question is for both of you, have you experienced this as being true? And then following up with that, is there ways that things could be even better for trans community here? And as I say, I’m realizing like I’m saying trans, is that the best? Is that a good way? Okay, okay, cool. Just want to be on the same page with that.
Karon: It works.
Jacob: It works for me.
Cara: Yeah, so yeah, how do you feel? Is this?
Jacob: I’m going to jump in. It is true and I think when you look at Transponders you realize the resources available through that organization are stunning for a city the size of Eugene. I just think the resources available are unbelievable. But I will tell you I’m slightly more hidden than some trans people. Transitioning to male is a little simpler as you’re older. And I still have had a fair amount of transphobia. Nothing violent, but grocery store clerks that refuse to stop calling me ma ‘am. Just small things. I know that a trans woman was beaten up downtown in Eugene last year. So I always worry when we self congratulate when there’s still work to be done. But we are incredibly privileged here compared to what’s going on for trans people in many parts of this country. So I don’t want to overplay that. Karon.
Karon: You know, we are aware of the possibility of violence. I live in an area near where that woman was beaten up and immediately after it happened, trans women who I barely know reached out to me. They found ways to contact me to make sure I was okay. And it sort of shocked me that people thought that that could have been me. And it could have been. I’m very careful.
I don’t have any illusions about being safe in this town or anywhere else. And I’d like to point out that Eugene has a long -running pride celebration, which embraces transness also. And it’s in jeopardy right now. After 30 years, the city of Eugene has really dropped the ball on supporting us and is allowing a for -profit enterprise to crowd us out of the park that we’ve been meeting in for 15 years and is utterly failing to provide the police support that we need to keep us safe from people who travel from other parts of the state to our event to harass us and intimidate us and try to prevent us from celebrating who we are. And I’m really disappointed that the city has let it go to this. And so I have to say that this may be one of the better places in the country, but that’s not saying much considering how low the bar is.
Cara: Thank you.
Jacob: I will say this about Pride. Last year I worked at Transponder booth at Pride and the thing that gave me so much joy was how many parents were there with their teenage trans kids and just really supporting them and enjoying the day with them. My first Pride ever was in Milwaukee in 1990 and there were 80 of us walking down the street while people screamed at us. So, you know, in that park watching those young teens come up and their parents encouraging them to come and talk was really, really beautiful. So that’s the part that I think that Eugene does well in how we treat our young people who are diverse. I think we do that better than some cities, which again, as Karon was saying, is not high bar.
Cara: Yeah, thank you both. My first Pride was in San Francisco, 2014. And I was in my early 20s and it was like, oh my like, yeah, it was so beautiful and powerful. So.
Jacob: We were at the San Francisco Pride the day after gay marriage was legalized. The American Library Association was having their convention there. What a day to be in San Francisco. That was amazing.
Cara: Yeah, awesome. I love that. Yeah, thank you both for sharing so openly on these important topics today. So and I’m gonna circle it back around because as we are a performing arts center, we would love to hear about ways you both like to express yourselves and how art or self -expression supports you in your journeys. And let’s go to Jacob first on that one.
Jacob: Well darn, see I was hoping Karon would cover this for me. I am not, I’m not an expressive arts person. I think I’m your art appreciator. I am, I am a retired librarian and my life has been the written word and its importance and its ability to carry us and our stories to each other.
Cara: Okay, we’re good. We need our appreciators.
Jacob: So, that for me and you know I’ll just say we my partner and I have spent a great deal of time at the Huilt Center at performances and yeah we’re the audience so that’s really my role. Go Karon, be expressive.
Karon: Well, I was in theater and dance in college and I’m sort of famous for being kind flamboyant. People around town know who I am because of the way I dress in my giant rainbow -colored parasol that I carry when it’s sunny or umbrella when it’s raining. I’m not really involved in art like formally, but appearing as myself feels like living theater sometimes.
Sometimes it’s the theater of the absurd. Sometimes it’s delightful. You can edit this out if this is too long. I had an encounter in a park with a young person, maybe four or five years old. I was with a friend of mine who is a very stereotypically beautiful woman. And this child stopped and looked at us and turning away from my friend, looked at me and said, you’re so beautiful. And I said, well, thank you. You’re beautiful too. And the child registered a surprise look and said, are you a boy or a girl? And I said, I’m a woman. And she said, you sound like a boy. And I said, I know. Isn’t it amazing? And then there…
adults hustled them away, but it was one of those delightful exchanges where I felt like just being visible, just being audible, being myself, this young person had a chance to come smack up against gender stereotypes that they were learning and incorporating into their understanding of the world, and they had that lovely astonished, wait a minute, this doesn’t fit, but they weren’t upset about it. They were sort of delighted by it, and it was wonderful to get to join them in their delight of discovery. there’s more to gender than they’ve showed me. So to me, that’s theater in the life.
Cara: Love that story. Thank you so much for sharing.
Jacob: I was carrying my granddaughter down the stairs when she was about that three or four. And there’s all the pictures on the wall of us, know, our family pictures on the stairs. And she was looking at one of me and she said, did people used to think you were a girl? And I said, yes, that’s right. They used to think I was a girl. And I loved that. It told the story beautifully and you know, and that’s what I really like is that if we leave kids alone, they already get it.
Cara: I love that, yes. My gosh, so much to go into on that, but I’m going to carry on with the questions, but thank you both for sharing. This next question is for Karen. So we have been really honored to have you as part of the Hult Center Community Resource Group the last two years, and it’s our first time doing this. And I want to ask why were you interested in joining this group and how has this experience serving on the group been for you?
Karon: I feel like I should have a very high politically motivated reason, but the honest reason that I joined this group was I thought, this is going to be a really interesting group of people, self -selecting to represent marginalized communities in Eugene. And I thought, I just want to meet these people. I just want to hang out with these people. I want to know where they’re from, who they are. And it’s happened. I’ve met some really interesting people through this, including the people who organized who I’ve come to know over the years. I’ve been exposed to as much diversity as I’ve contributed by far. And so for me, it’s a social gathering to discover each other. And if the Hult Center benefits from it, well, that’s all gravy. But I would go to those meetings even if there was like no official agenda and anything related to the Hult going on.
Cara: I joined the team about a year ago. And I just, yeah, just every time you speak up and share something, it just, it’s so meaningful. And we just really, really appreciate you as part of that group. And Jacob, you spoke about this already a bit, but so during the COVID shutdown, we were all very isolated. You began a book group through Transponder and you did share why you started it. How has that group impacted your life? How has it continued to impact your life? Or anything else you want to share about that group?
Jacob: I think for all of us there are those among us who I think that group has at various times saved our lives. Mine. You know, being trans is hard. I always say about gay and lesbian kids or LGBT kids that they’re the kids to go home to families who don’t understand what they’re going through. You know, most marginalized communities, your family members are in that same marginalization, and they have some understanding of what your day’s like. I don’t think that’s true for LGBT kids, few kids, and I think that’s especially true for trans people. It’s real hard to communicate. I was married for over 20 years when I told my partner I was trans. That’s a hard conversation to have with someone who has no preparation for it and no understanding of it and you’re talking about what to them looks like mutilating your body and changing something they love very much.
Trans people have a really high rate of suicide and suicide attempts and it’s not because we’re deeply depressed people, it’s because society is very negative towards us. so having people that you can talk to who know the journey that you’re on, who Karon once talked about her struggles accepting herself as a woman.
Recently there are some things that I’m working through and I keep coming back to things she said about that that I remember her saying about her experience and that to have that connection to have other people who say well, yeah, you may be crazy But I’m crazy too and we’ll walk along on this journey with you that’s incredibly powerful.
And when Karon says to look at those little screens and see all the people whose faces look just like yours, you know, who are struggling, we have a member in Texas who’s coming up in a couple weeks. Just coming here just to see all of us because she’s a young woman who’s early in college and we’ve provided a community.
It gives me great joy. We meet every so often here at my house and have a potluck. We met through the pandemic… We had Thanksgiving during the pandemic together and we’ve… I think… I think we’ve saved each other’s lives. I really do. I know that they have saved mine. Literally. I looked out my window on one of the worst days of my life and Karen and five other people were sitting on my porch waiting for me to show up to…
Cara: Mm.
Jacob: So they could keep me from drowning.
Cara: Hmm. Wow. Thank you so much. And I know you are both involved with Transponders. And I’d love to provide this platform for you to share more about what this group does and ways the community in Eugene and Springfield can support this work. This is really important.
Jacob: I honestly think that if the election goes badly next year, Transponder is going to be incredibly important all over this country. If the election goes badly, don’t… We may not have access to medical care. And I think that you will see a huge amount of suicides.
I’m really worried about that. Transponder is currently in the middle of a million dollar grant to provide mental health services to trans people. They’re a tremendous resource for parents of trans children. They provide supplies and vouchers and Karon is probably more insightful here.
Karon: I think that one of the strengths of Transponder is that they’re so diverse, that they’re involved in so many different things from the voucher program that Jacob referred to, which these are purchase vouchers for gender -affirming clothing through a local shop to gender diverse yoga classes held in person so that people who are suffering from dysphoria about our bodies. It can be in a safe place to move, to even move without feeling conspicuous, without feeling judged by other people to a book club that’s accessible literally from all over the world. We had a person come from Singapore. We have regular people on other sides of the country. The joke for a while was we called ourselves the Transcontinental Book Club.
And then there is in -person support groups, social opportunities for families with trans youth who want to help their young people connect with community and who want to find other parents who know what this is like, what am I going through? Do you understand this? They’re a gateway for parents whose children are beginning to discover their identity and gender and the parents have no idea how to respond but they want to respond well. My favorite emails are perplexed, lost, loving parents who say, help me. I want to understand my child. I want to help them thrive and grow and live. And I don’t know how, and I need somebody to show me how. I believe there’s still a transparent support group. I can’t remember if that’s come or gone, but there’s so many different resources and all the ones that can be delivered remotely are, which makes them, like Jacob said, incredibly important because there are root sources all over the country. Yeah.
Jacob: And I want to say about the book club. We probably talk less about books than any book club on the planet. Every month we read a book and technically we all read it. Technically, somewhere in the middle of the pandemic, we decided that far too many trans memoirs were deeply, deeply painful. And so we mostly read fairly light YA (Young Adult) type science fiction, fantasy kind of things.
Once a month we actually pretend that we’re talking about the book for a while, but each week we meet and we check in and we talk about what we’re reading in general and what’s going on in our lives. the reason I’m saying that is, and we’re also about allies, you don’t have to be trans, you just have to not be transphobic. And we welcome, we have about 40 people on our list, we usually have somewhere, if it’s the week we’re discussing the book there are fewer people than the weeks when we don’t discuss the book. But we usually run somewhere around 12 to 15 people most weeks. So if you’re trans supportive, we’d welcome you to come.
Cara: Well, I was checking out the website with like, all the books you’re reading and I’m like, yeah, really wonderful, wonderful work.
Jacob: That’s the other thing. Ben, our beloved leader, has composed the most, compiled the best group of queer literature that I’ve seen around. Not just what we’ve read, but what we’ve all heard about or seen, not just trans, but also queer. We try to read books by or about queer subjects.
Karon: And that list of books is accessible through the website to anybody in the country. Anyone with an internet connection can find that list of books and then start tracking down those books for themselves. And they range from children’s books to really dark horror. I mean, there’s something for everyone.
Jacob: And every now and then somebody will bring a picture book and read it to all of us, which we really appreciate.
Karon: Sometimes in the meeting. Yeah. Yeah. We also frequently discuss things like shoes and socks.
Jacob: I was just going to talk about the shoes. Way too much conversation about shoes. It’s unfortunate.
Cara: Ha ha ha.
Karon: As you can tell, it’s a community and books give us a kind of an anchor point, but it doesn’t constrain us. It’s something for us to come back to again and again. It’s a common theme. It’s something we have in common, but it certainly doesn’t limit what we talk about and how we support each other, especially if someone is struggling, if someone is going through a really hard time, medically, employment, family. We support each other through. Really the kind of family conversations that no human being should ever have to have, being cut off by parents, disowned by grandparents, losing access to children, really hard things about living in an oppressive society that targets us, and we’re there for each other. And as Jacob said, we’re saving each other’s lives, week by week.
Cara: Mm. Mm. Wow.
Jacob: And reading a little along with it.
Karon: We do make each other laugh also. Jacob and I take the latter.
Jacob: I think that the entire purpose of the book club was so that Karon and I could meet each other. That’s just this cosmic thing that needed to happen.
Cara: Yeah, I can see that. Aww. I love this conversation so much with you both. We’re kind of at that closing point. I did want to leave a little space if there’s any last thing you want to share with our listeners that’s on your heart in this moment.
Karon: I think the most important thing for me to say is, you know someone who’s gender diverse. If you’re hearing this, you know someone who’s gender diverse. The question is, do you understand enough to recognize it and appreciate what they’re going through and be supportive of some of them? But we’re everywhere and we appear in so many different ways. Yeah, you know us, you do.
Jacob: And my concern is always for the kids. Know, trans kids, queer kids are out there and they need our support more than I can possibly say and often aren’t getting it at home. So this is one of those times when as Karon is saying, attention needs to be paid and we need to save some lives. The messages trans kids are getting right now are terrible and one of the reasons that I do this, and I think Karon too, is that it’s a lot of fun to be a trans person. I have to tell you, if the world would leave me alone, nothing has given me greater joy than being in this body. I describe it as if I had lived my life in a dark culvert where I could not move and I could not see, and then suddenly somebody said, there’s a world out there and you can dance and be in the sunlight.
And that’s where I am now. Nothing in my life makes me unhappy. But the way that other people treat me can destroy me and certainly can destroy children. And so my message is always, please choose kindness. Choose love. I can’t believe I said that. My therapist would be so proud of me.
Cara: But it’s true! It’s true!
Jacob Griffin: It really is. It all just comes right down to that, you know.
Cara: Yes. Oh, well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. The Hult Center will be tabling at Pride on August 10. And we would love a chance to talk to folks. So please come by.
Jacob: Yay! And transponder will have a table. Come by.
Cara: Just another reminder, RuPaul’s Drag Race: All Stars Live will be at the Holt Center Tuesday, August 13th at 730. This show is part of our Arts for All program, which offers two tickets for $5 for Oregon Trail Card holders. Thanks for listening.
